GURPSnet-Digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 04 : Number 3764 In this issue: Re: Psionic Gate Gates Re: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? Re: Speed of Gravity revisited Re: Combat examples ?VOTW? Re: Where did that shot come from? Re: [TML] Jump flash in canon Re: I need a pirate ship... RE: Where did that shot come from? Re: Gates Re: I need a pirate ship... Re: ?VOTW? Re: ?VOTW? Re: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? Wounds was: RE: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? RE: Where did that shot come from? Re: Where did that shot come from? RE: Wounds was: RE: Where did that shot come from? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the GURPSnet-L or GURPSnet-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:45 EST From: SWLapinsky@aol.com Subject: Re: Psionic Gate In a message dated 1/9/03 03:18:03, troyguffey@cyberdude.com writes: >I want to create a character who can create Gates between places. What >kind of cost should the enhancement to Teleport cost? Or should it be >considered a totally different power? > >What dimensions of gates? > >How long would be reasonable to hold open the gate? > >I was also thinking of having it used as a stardrive? What range should >each level of power get you in space? My first thought was a bunch of enhancements to psionic teleportation (Affects Others, Area Effect, Extended Duration, etc.) -- but after re-reading the enhancements, I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it. Instead, why not create a Knack of the Create Gate spell (Grimoire p. 49)? The fact that it's psionic rather than magical would be a special effect (worth no points either way), leaving you with a 40 point advantage (unless you "enhance" it with either Power or Speed). By default, that creates a 3' x 6' gate; time to cast and fatigue cost vary wi th the gate's destination. - - Stephen Lapinsky "Freedom tempered by responsibility." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 08:30:11 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Adams Subject: Gates Well, I expect alot has to do with how permenent the gate is to be? How far does it go? And like? Mike ===== Send me email at: Abrigon@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:33:25 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Jackson Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? =?iso-8859-1?q?Alan=20Atkinson?= writes: > > Or, if you happen to have TL8 equipment from UTT, the > Near-Miss Indicator is ideal for this sort of > situation. > > (Actually, I seem to recall a RL development of the > same idea, but not where or how. Anyone?) I forget the name, it may be 'near-miss indicator'. In any case, yeah, systems that do this are possible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:31:18 +0100 From: "Michele Armellini" Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? > Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:01:14 -0600 > From: "Gabe Johanns" > Subject: Where did that shot come from? > > Hello, > > My group is going to be coming under some heavy direct fire from > concealed positions. If the PC's can not see where the bullets are > hitting or the muzzle flash what kind of hearing modifier would you use > for them to be able to figure it out enemy positions? > > Thanks, > - -Gabe > It's strange that they can't see where the bullets are hitting. Also, locating a sniper might require Hearing (and other) rolls. But you said "heavy direct" fire, where "heavy" usually means many, many rounds, by several non-auto guns and/or one or more automatic guns; this is usually very obvious. In any case, a Hearing roll wouldn't be the best bet for them. First, there would be a situation awareness roll (IQ, I'd say, if they have to roll at all). This allows them to rule out obviously impossible places and fields of fire. For instance, the very fact that they don't see the bullets hit the dirt uncomfortably close to them, means the firer isn't perched in a position above their own. Secondly, most people would rule out the direction they are coming from (but this might well be a mistake, with a clever, patient and cunning sniper). If part of a larger unit, they'd then give low probabilities to the "friendly" front (again this might be a mistake), leaving a field of 180° or so. If they aren't moving across a flat desert, the situation might also add other limiting factors. For instance, they are advancing with a building wall close to their left. They don't see bullets hitting the wall (nor the ground). This rules out both the left AND the right. And all of this without using a Hearing roll. Second, there'd be a Tactics and/or Soldier roll (with bonuses, say +2). This will let them take the correct initiative (take cover). They'll probably elect to place the available cover between themselves and their front. If they find they are now under cover, the firer is on the other side of the cover. If not, the firer is on this side, and it's time to change side of the cover! Now you may let them roll against Hearing, with say a -8 penalty, to locate the _general_ area the fire is coming from. This huge penalty is assuming the best-case conditions; if there is a mild background noise it's a -10, and no chances of success if there are echoes, heavy background noise (such as a general battle going on) or one of the group fires blindly. Locating the _general_ area means they can't aim at the firing enemy on that info, though they may call down support fire or make suppression area fire themselves - on a cluster of hexes, probably a rather large one. However, if they want to return fire, or observe for the support fire, they'll have to expose an eye (or at least a periscope!), so why on Earth should you make them roll against Hearing? Why not let them roll against Vision, with a much smaller penalty or none at all? Regards, Michele ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:22:42 -0600 From: "Gabe Johanns" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? >> My group is going to be coming under some heavy direct fire from >> concealed positions. If the PC's can not see where the bullets are >> hitting or the muzzle flash what kind of hearing modifier would you use >> for them to be able to figure it out enemy positions? >It's strange that they can't see where the bullets are hitting. >Also, locating a sniper might require Hearing (and other) rolls. But you >said "heavy direct" fire, where "heavy" usually means many, many rounds, by >several non-auto guns and/or one or more automatic guns; this is usually >very obvious. >In any case, a Hearing roll wouldn't be the best bet for them. >First, there would be a situation awareness roll (IQ, I'd say, if they have >to roll at all). This allows them to rule out obviously impossible places >and fields of fire. For instance, the very fact that they don't see the >bullets hit the dirt uncomfortably close to them, means the firer isn't >perched in a position above their own. Secondly, most people would rule out >the direction they are coming from (but this might well be a mistake, with >a clever, patient and cunning sniper). If part of a larger unit, they'd >then give low probabilities to the "friendly" front (again this might be a >mistake), leaving a field of 180° or so. If they aren't moving across a >flat desert, the situation might also add other limiting factors. For >instance, they are advancing with a building wall close to their left. They >don't see bullets hitting the wall (nor the ground). This rules out both the >left AND the right. And all of this without using a Hearing roll. What you describe is very close to what I had envisioned. The scene would be something like the ambush in the movie Forest Gump, where their patrol would top a small hill or road and enemy troops would be waiting on the other side. i.e. lower (no bullets hitting dirt, at least right away) and would be under cover (would take a vision roll to see the muzzle flash, but my question was for the unfortunate ones that failed their vision roll) Their first reaction would be to go prone behind the hill, but on what side of the hill crest? >Second, there'd be a Tactics and/or Soldier roll (with bonuses, say +2). >This will let them take the correct initiative (take cover). They'll >probably elect to place the available cover between themselves and their >front. If they find they are now under cover, the firer is on the other >side of the cover. If not, the firer is on this side, and it's time to >change side of the cover! I would assume that after a few seconds of sustained fire they would see bullets kicking up dirt as the enemy solders started firing on the now prone PC's. After this it would not take much to deduce where the attack was coming from. But I love the Tactics roll. If any of them fail both the vision, and then the hearing rolls a good tactician should know where the best firing cover would be and where most enemy units would hide. I will forgo the hearing roll and go strait to tactics first, and then failing that they can roll hearing. >Now you may let them roll against Hearing, with say a -8 penalty, to locate >the _general_ area the fire is coming from. This huge penalty is assuming >the best-case conditions; if there is a mild background noise it's a -10, >and no chances of success if there are echoes, heavy background noise (such >as a general battle going on) or one of the group fires blindly. Locating >the _general_ area means they can't aim at the firing enemy on that info, >though they may call down support fire or make suppression area fire >themselves - on a cluster of hexes, probably a rather large one. >However, if they want to return fire, or observe for the support fire, >they'll have to expose an eye (or at least a periscope!), so why on Earth >should you make them roll against Hearing? Why not let them roll against >Vision, with a much smaller penalty or none at all? True, I should have expressed that I was looking for the split second they take to realize they are under fire, not freeze, and to decide on what side of the embankment they are standing on to run for cover. I was trying to find a good way out if some of my PC's do not make the vision roll for the muzzle flashes, but still make all of them feel like they had succeeded in defeating the surprise of the and starting return fire. >Regards, >Michele Thanks, Gabe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Cybrludite Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? - --- Alan Atkinson wrote: > Or, if you happen to have TL8 equipment from UTT, > the > Near-Miss Indicator is ideal for this sort of > situation. > > (Actually, I seem to recall a RL development of the > same idea, but not where or how. Anyone?) I've seen it demonstrated on the Discovery Channel or some such. Uses an ultrasonic motion detector with a filter set to block out the slow stuff. Looks like it's good for finding the source for the odd angry shot, but it gets cluttered fast with autofire. IIRC, the demo looked like just that. With the device a few meters off to the left it detected the shots and some of the ejected shell caseings quite well. How well it'll do strapped to someone's helmet during an ambush in Grozny or Mogadishu, I'm not so sure. ===== Jon rm -rf /bin/laden __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:34:52 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Jackson Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? Gabe Johanns writes: > What you describe is very close to what I had envisioned. The scene would > be something like the ambush in the movie Forest Gump, where their patrol would top a small hill or road and enemy troops would be waiting on the other side. i.e. lower (no bullets hitting dirt, at least right away) and would be under cover (would take a vision roll to see the muzzle flash, but my question was for the unfortunate ones that failed their vision roll) You'd probably still see some bullets chewing up foliage. > > Their first reaction would be to go prone behind the hill, but on what side > of the hill crest? The side they came from, most likely. In any case, figuring this out is a lot easier than actually locating a gunner by sound. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:12:26 -0800 From: Dylan Subject: Re: Speed of Gravity revisited At 09:21 AM 1/8/2003, Clayten wrote: >>>well, New Scientist has a piece on how the speed of gravity has been >>>measured for the first time. Apparently, it's the same as for light... >>Cool. and the article even answers your question: after 8.3 seconds, the >>Earth goes off in a straight line. probably a tangent to its orbit. >Actually, it's 8.3 minutes, or so. oops, comes from typing too fast, I meant minutes. :-) dylan Dylan Ryall : dylan@dcn.org : dylan@dcn.davis.ca.us : Davis, CA http://www.sacleft.org I don't think I would have been in such a hurry to reach adulthood if I'd known the whole thing was going to be ad-libbed. Calvin's father, "Calvin and Hobbes" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 16:31:01 -0800 From: Dylan Subject: Re: Combat examples At 07:23 AM 1/9/2003, Thomas Ackermann wrote: >Range and Speep should not be calculated for a target that can dodge an >attack - only the range. This seems like a useful tidbit for my current game, can you site the reference? for when the rules lawyer complains :) dylan Dylan Ryall : dylan@dcn.org : dylan@dcn.davis.ca.us : Davis, CA http://www.sacleft.org I don't think I would have been in such a hurry to reach adulthood if I'd known the whole thing was going to be ad-libbed. Calvin's father, "Calvin and Hobbes" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:12:56 -0700 From: eclipsek Subject: ?VOTW? A strange question comming from me.... I recall someone had a site with the collected VOTW... which wasn't the GURPsnet archives. What was the url? - -Sue (feeling really silly right now) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:51:35 -0500 (EST) From: hal@buffnet.net Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? For what it is worth? I recall watching a special where they trained a few men what sniper fire feels like to be on the receiving end. The men *knew* they would come under fire. They were clustered around as if eating a meal, sitting in camp chairs and the like. Some were clustered around a table. I'm not sure what the weapon being used was, but I have a feeling it was a rather heavy weapon as opposed to a standard 5.56mm round. The sniper was situated in hills heavy with foilage. As the dirt kicked up from his shots, the men could *NOT* ascertain where that sniper was firing from. Looking at the hills from *their* vantage point, it looked as though the shots were coming from at least 300 yards, maybe more. Point is? NO one could pinpoint that sniper *just* from sound. All they could do is figure that he was coming from somewhere in the general direction of the hills to their front. It is one thing to sit there knowing a friendly sniper was firing to *miss*, it was altogether different I would imagine, wondering when a bullet with YOUR name would come out of the blue to nail you. Here is a role playing Situation for you all... You've been hit and you've gone down. You know that if you move, the sniper is going target your legs and/or arms - trying to HURT you so you don't move. What would you do? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:11:23 -0500 (EST) From: hal@buffnet.net Subject: Re: [TML] Jump flash in canon One thing to remember? If you are within a specific distance of the Jump Flash going in - you know the direction the jumper is going. If you are within a set distance of the jumper when it emerges from Jump space, you know what the size of the ship was that emerged. Beyond that point, all you know is that something *at least* 100 tons jumped in, maybe more. What do you do when you discover that what jumped in is home to another say, 7 flashes? Do you send a recon in force? Do you stay at those places you want to defend knowing that the 8 flashes could be scouts trying to lure you away while the main punch arrives to hit the point of intent? Also, if those ships that jumped in have enough fuel in them for yet another jump - as you approach in force, they can just jump away... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:03:03 +0100 (MET) From: "Onno Meyer" Subject: Re: I need a pirate ship... > >Give me the parameters of what you want for this "pirate" ship and I > will see > >what I can do... > > > > 1 parrot > 1 peg leg pirate > 1 pirate with a really dreadful name > 3 pirates with bad breath > 2 one handed hook pirates > 4 one eye'd pirates > Assorted scruffy pirates > Various salty pirates > 1 Errol Flynn character with rapier (or saber) and rope swinging ability > Complete vocabulary of sea slang > Gear for walking the plank > Gear for keel hauling > One devils spine What is that? > A crows nest. > > And that carved figure that hangs from the front of the ship. > > Lots of cannons, gunpowder, shot. > Mostly wood, canvas > > Hope this helps A bit more seriously: TL4 or TL5? That makes a difference ... How many guns, what throw weight? How much crew? As I understand it, the majority of real pirates had small ships. They went after lightly armed merchants, not the massive ships of the line (which stayed in Europe to fight the French or the Brits anyway). Onno ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:00:22 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? > I recall watching a special where they trained a few men what sniper fire > feels like to be on the receiving end. The men *knew* they would come > under fire. They were clustered around as if eating a meal, sitting in > camp chairs and the like. Some were clustered around a table. I'm not > sure what the weapon being used was, but I have a feeling it was a rather > heavy weapon as opposed to a standard 5.56mm round. The sniper was > situated in hills heavy with foilage. This is exactly why I ignored this thread. Cover muffles sound. Snipers know this too. > As the dirt kicked up from his shots, the men could *NOT* ascertain where > that sniper was firing from. Looking at the hills from *their* vantage > point, it looked as though the shots were coming from at least 300 yards, > maybe more. Point is? NO one could pinpoint that sniper *just* from > sound. All they could do is figure that he was coming from somewhere in > the general direction of the hills to their front. No flash - no reliable direct finding unless you are in the desert. A group member _may_ be pointing in the right direction at the time. > It is one thing to sit there knowing a friendly sniper was firing to > *miss*, it was altogether different I would imagine, wondering when a > bullet with YOUR name would come out of the blue to nail you. Two words: friendly fire - sorry, that admits you shot allies/colleagues: Blue fire. > Here is a role playing Situation for you all... > > You've been hit and you've gone down. You know that if you move, the > sniper is going target your legs and/or arms - trying to HURT you so you > don't move. What would you do? If you are hit at all from a sniper class weapon you are in trouble and need help. If you are alone you have to move - you have no option as you are dead or captured if you stay. Try to conceal your self or try to move extremely slowly. He may be looking for others. If you have mates, try to keep your mouth shut and don't scream to panic them into trying to come get you - the sniper has you ranged and bracketed - he'll bag whoever tries. Try to _quietly_ encourage your mates to get cover, make cover fire if they know where the sniper shot from or lay concealment with smoke. Of course, your NCO will do all this anyway if he makes a Soldier roll. But the sniper will get to make his soldier roll too. If he's been observing your squad he'll go for the NCO next - if that's not you anyway. If not, as soon as smoke obscures you he could [this is debatably wise, as you'd need to be at 300m+ for the range to target to be safe for the sniper] fire for effect. Personally, as soon as I saw smoke, I'd shoot you again and withdraw [that's move back from your units direction before moving laterally] from my position to flank your unit by at least 30 degrees. But then I'd be shooting with a 7.62mm rifle <7d> at minimum, so your unit would be badly slowed if not immobile for at least 25 minutes while they stabilised you from the crippled limb. That should give me time to flank and reacquire. Then I'd bag your medic. [Soldier roll: your NCO should set up overwatch on the flanks and ignore the medic and move you to cover on those flanks asap.] mce. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:29:29 -0900 From: Abrigon Gusiq Subject: Re: Gates Hum, will have to think on it.. Mike Troy Guffey wrote: > Mike Adams wrote: > > Well, I expect alot has to do with how permenent the gate is to be? > > How far does it go? And like? > > All variable, no permanent. > > Actually, now that I think about it, what I would REALLY like to do is use > WhiteWolfMage Correspondence Sphere 4 (for those people who have GURPS > Mage:theAscension) > > Troy Guffey > ICQ pager: http://wwp.icq.com/1978644 > AIM: Pax214 > Y!: troyguffey > PGP key ID: 0xDCCDF22D ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 2003 10:24:26 -0000 From: "Volker Bach" Subject: Re: I need a pirate ship... On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:03:03 +0100 (MET), "Onno Meyer" wrote : > > >Give me the parameters of what you want for this "pirate" ship and I > > will see > > >what I can do... > > > > And that carved figure that hangs from the front of the ship. > > > > Lots of cannons, gunpowder, shot. > > Mostly wood, canvas > > > > Hope this helps > > A bit more seriously: > > TL4 or TL5? That makes a difference ... TL5 (except *very* early TL 5 such as 1760) is too late for a 'true' pirate ship. You get a couple letters-of-marque, but that's it. > How many guns, what throw weight? > > How much crew? > > As I understand it, the majority of real pirates had small ships. > They went after lightly armed merchants, not the massive ships of > the line (which stayed in Europe to fight the French or the Brits > anyway). Most pirates sailed in merchantmen they took. Some did extensive refits to them, but the customary fashion was: Buy a small (and usually old) ship Hire a crew Get yourself some other ships the usual way Keep the best one you get Transfer your guns to the prize Repeat steps 3-6 Some pirates started out with high-caliber ships either by changing profession in mid-trip (Kidd started out as an official privateer sailing in what contemporaries considered the finest multirole warship of its day, fresh off the wharf) or by cooperating with corrupt authorities, but the majority took what they could get. IIRC the largest gun any pirate in early 18th century American waters carried were 12pdr broadside guns. Volker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:00:39 -0300 From: "Marcelo Cortimiglia" Subject: Re: ?VOTW? Hello all, from Onno´s last VOTW: "This is a weekly posting with GURPS vehicles (and the like) to the GURPSnet mailing list. I grant the permission for all non-commercial redistribution of my work, but I would like to know if you put it on a website or the like. With a slight delay, old vehicles appear at http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Vehicles/Collections/ and http://www.geocities.com/copeab/VOTW.html Onno Meyer, 12/2002" Sincerely, Marcelo Cortimiglia - ----- Original Message ----- From: "eclipsek" To: "GURPSnet-L" Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:12 AM Subject: ?VOTW? > A strange question comming from me.... > I recall someone had a site with the collected VOTW... which wasn't > the GURPsnet archives. > What was the url? > -Sue > (feeling really silly right now) > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:40:05 -0800 From: eclipsek@telusplanet.net Subject: Re: ?VOTW? Thanks. To everyone who answered. :) - -Sue ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:23:09 -0800 From: "Brian G. Vaughan" Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" > > You've been hit and you've gone down. You know that if you move, the > > sniper is going target your legs and/or arms - trying to HURT you so > you > > don't move. What would you do? > > If you are hit at all from a sniper class weapon you are in trouble and > need help. > If you are alone you have to move - you have no option as you are dead > or captured if you stay. Try to conceal your self or try to move > extremely slowly. He may be looking for others. How would I know that the opponent would shoot to immobilize, rather than to kill? I'd stay put. If I have allies, maybe they can get the sniper. It depends upon the opponent, but generally, I'd prefer to be captured rather than to be killed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:25:36 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? > > If you are hit at all from a sniper class weapon you are in trouble and > > need help. > > If you are alone you have to move - you have no option as you are dead > > or captured if you stay. Try to conceal your self or try to move > > extremely slowly. He may be looking for others. > > How would I know that the opponent would shoot to immobilize, rather than > to kill? If you aren't dead, chances are he shot to immobilise. Against a decent section the best way to bag more than one man is to torture the victim. Shoot him in the thigh or better, the lower gut, then shoot him in the arm or leg occasionally, the more he screams the more likely his mate or medic will try to save him. Model this as a will roll at -2 or more, -3 for empathy adv. -3 for medical training higher than soldier skill. -4 for lovers. > I'd stay put. If I have allies, maybe they can get the sniper. It depends > upon the opponent, but generally, I'd prefer to be captured rather than to > be killed. As wise as any other choice, but it depends on who you are facing. Capture while alone could result in rape or torture or both. Mutilation of superpower soldiers when captured by third world troops is commonplace. [afghans v. victorian british, russians, etc. amerinds v. US. Africans v. each other and all imperial powers] Tribal forces view torture as a strengthening process for themselves; "look, we made one of them scream - we are more powerful than them" very old sympathetic magic. Looking thru history celts tortured prisoners, as did the amerinds, the various arabs, turks, africans, chinese, americans, brits, etc, etc. only the vikings iirc, but they might decide to sacrifice you to god for luck on a battle, so that's debatably helpful. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:28:46 -0600 From: "Gabe Johanns" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? If you are hit at all from a sniper class weapon you are in trouble and need help. If you are alone you have to move - you have no option as you are dead or captured if you stay. Try to conceal your self or try to move extremely slowly. He may be looking for others. If you have mates, try to keep your mouth shut and don't scream to panic them into trying to come get you - the sniper has you ranged and bracketed - he'll bag whoever tries. Try to _quietly_ encourage your mates to get cover, make cover fire if they know where the sniper shot from or lay concealment with smoke. Of course, your NCO will do all this anyway if he makes a Soldier roll. But the sniper will get to make his soldier roll too. If he's been observing your squad he'll go for the NCO next - if that's not you anyway. If not, as soon as smoke obscures you he could [this is debatably wise, as you'd need to be at 300m+ for the range to target to be safe for the sniper] fire for effect. Personally, as soon as I saw smoke, I'd shoot you again and withdraw [that's move back from your units direction before moving laterally] from my position to flank your unit by at least 30 degrees. But then I'd be shooting with a 7.62mm rifle <7d> at minimum, so your unit would be badly slowed if not immobile for at least 25 minutes while they stabilised you from the crippled limb. That should give me time to flank and reacquire. Then I'd bag your medic. [Soldier roll: your NCO should set up overwatch on the flanks and ignore the medic and move you to cover on those flanks asap.] So what would be a anti-sniper move for the unit? Retreat ASAP and call in an air strike? (What if there is not air support?) Lay down cover fire and setup heavy ordinance (i.e. mortars) for as long as it takes to find the sniper? Disperse and stalk the sniper through the terrain? (the last sound incredibly stupid, but I would like to know if there is a way for my PC's to outsmart a sniper bent on taking them all out.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:41:18 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Jackson Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? McCarty-Eigenmann writes: > > If you aren't dead, chances are he shot to immobilise. Nah. Pretty good chance he simply failed to get a killing shot, either because he wasn't all that good (not all snipers are trained as such), the range was extreme, or he got unlucky. A human can take a torso shot from a rifle with a fair chance of not being immediately disabled, and a high probability of not being immediately killed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:46:43 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Jackson Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? Gabe Johanns writes: > So what would be a anti-sniper move for the unit? Retreat ASAP and call > in an air strike? (What if there is not air support?) Lay down cover > fire and setup heavy ordinance (i.e. mortars) for as long as it takes to > find the sniper? Disperse and stalk the sniper through the terrain? (the > last sound incredibly stupid, but I would like to know if there is a way > for my PC's to outsmart a sniper bent on taking them all out.) Depends on what the PCs are trying to do, and on the situation. In many cases, the best choice may be proceeding to their destination in a way that minimizes the sniper's chance to shoot at them, and not making any significant effort to find the sniper. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:56:37 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? > So what would be a anti-sniper move for the unit? Retreat ASAP and call > in an air strike? (What if there is not air support?) Lay down cover > fire and setup heavy ordinance (i.e. mortars) for as long as it takes to > find the sniper? Disperse and stalk the sniper through the terrain? (the > last sound incredibly stupid, but I would like to know if there is a way > for my PC's to outsmart a sniper bent on taking them all out.) if the unit spots the snipers direction and if they didn't disperse and go to cover then they lay fire and advance on his position. If you are lucky or he has insufficient cover you can at least drive him off, if not kill him. Once he's forced to react, rather than act he has lost initiative and most of his advantage. If the unit hit cover they need to get a clue to his direction and move to flank him. Heavy weapons work best for this option. Good troops working in bounding overwatch - pairs moving to cover each other are liekly to bag the sniper if they force his range advantage. But then, he'll know this and will move off to counter flank. He can move faster and quieter than the unit too. But to return to my original point. It all depends. Is the sniper as 200pt ice-blooded killing machine or a 75pt squaddie who happens to have rifle -18? The first is extremely difficult to kill, the second can probably be panicked by enough cover fire and exposed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:08:37 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Jackson Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? McCarty-Eigenmann writes: > Is the sniper as 200pt ice-blooded killing machine or a 75pt squaddie > who happens to have rifle -18? The first is extremely difficult to > kill, the second can probably be panicked by enough cover fire and > exposed. Or, for that matter, a 25-point random person with Rifle-12. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:11:37 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: Wounds was: RE: Where did that shot come from? > > If you aren't dead, chances are he shot to immobilise. > > Nah. Pretty good chance he simply failed to get a killing shot, either > because > he wasn't all that good (not all snipers are trained as such), the range > was extreme, or he got unlucky. True enough, as I said in the other mail, if he's a sniper in the infantry sense he's more likely to have missed, if he's a sniper in the Special Forces sense, he did it deliberately, as he'll have waited for you to have stood right for the shot. Either way, he drops a body and then needs to be removed as an issue. If he makes the shot and then moves off he's suceeded in his goal. He stopped you and slowed your advance. > A human can take a torso shot from a rifle with a > fair chance of not being immediately disabled, and a high probability of > not being immediately killed. I don't actually agree there - if the shot that dropped him was a torso hit and it dropped him, he's in serious trouble. If it's a lower torso hit sepsis is setting in and he will be gangrenous if he doesn't bleed out or go into shock from the pain. If it's a centre torso hit he's probably dead without help within the hour. If it's a left or right upper torso hit the lung is flooding or collapsed. Either way he isn't mobile under his own power. I'd agree that a human can take a rifle shot with a fair chance of not immediately being killed, and a better than fair chance of survival with medical attention. The chance of the shot not immediately disabling is if it's a clip, or in game terms a low damage roll... which is the 7-14pts range, unless the weapon is a .50BMG, in which case a clip is still maiming. Gurps falls down on secondary medical effects. This is granularity an dgore - its bad enough without adding a medics handbook to the issues. It would be real world for the screaming man to make a fright check and have a decent chance of failing it and despite being savable simply dying. He _knew_ a torso hit was fatal. This does happen. Often to religious types. Personally, to reflect my experience, I make a D6/2 roll on any wound and apply that as a penalty to the first aid roll. [lately I've been considering moving onto <-2D6-tl of care> ] It's for the unexpected problems that you cant deal with. At one point I made the FA roll at -damage, with larger adds to the application of medical kits, giving kit, the patient making a HT roll and not panicking Its all in the tome of the campaign anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:19:23 +0100 (MEZ) From: Johannes Trimmel Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, McCarty-Eigenmann wrote: > Then I'd bag your medic. > Am i correct that this would be against the Geneva Convention? Not that this will stop that many snipers, just out of couriosity. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better a solution that makes the problem worse then no solution at all. Johannes Trimmel ++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:58:43 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? > > Then I'd bag your medic. > > Am i correct that this would be against the Geneva Convention? > Not that this will stop that many snipers, just out of couriosity. Yes, but you haven't labelled your medic with the red cross. Sad but true. The rules are unimportant until you have a chance of getting caught. mce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:59:55 -0000 From: "McCarty-Eigenmann" Subject: RE: Where did that shot come from? > > Is the sniper as 200pt ice-blooded killing machine or a 75pt squaddie > > who happens to have rifle -18? The first is extremely difficult to > > kill, the second can probably be panicked by enough cover fire and > > exposed. > > Or, for that matter, a 25-point random person with Rifle-12. Especially true - however, sniper and unit conjures a specific image to me. Oddly, not a person hunting a agile wetlands birds though. Funny thing language. mce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:14:26 +0100 From: Vegard Valberg Subject: Re: Where did that shot come from? Questions: What about laying down a half dozen or so smoke grenades? I mean I know the average unit might not have much in the way of smoke grenades, but wouldn't it mess things up for the sniper? At least temporarily, enough time to pull your wounded guy into cover? - --- - -- - - Vegard Valberg My e-mail adress is , that is two v's, not one W. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:25:46 -0600 From: "Gabe Johanns" Subject: RE: Wounds was: RE: Where did that shot come from? Gurps falls down on secondary medical effects. This is granularity an dgore - its bad enough without adding a medics handbook to the issues. It would be real world for the screaming man to make a fright check and have a decent chance of failing it and despite being savable simply dying. He _knew_ a torso hit was fatal. This does happen. Often to religious types. Personally, to reflect my experience, I make a D6/2 roll on any wound and apply that as a penalty to the first aid roll. [lately I've been considering moving onto <-2D6-tl of care> ] It's for the unexpected problems that you cant deal with. At one point I made the FA roll at -damage, with larger adds to the application of medical kits, giving kit, the patient making a HT roll and not panicking I have actually gone to using the blow-back number or Damage/8 for bullet wounds as the modifier for FA or Physician roll. And I have been toying with the idea of then adding the TL back in to compensate (however, the result could never be a positive effect to the roll). For a <7d> gun the average damage is 7*3.5=24.5 rounded down (for simplicity sake) to 24. This divided by 8 gives 3. So the attending Medic would be a -3 to skill in the field. I don't use these modifiers in an actual medical center where they have use of all the modern medical machines and tools. ------------------------------ End of GURPSnet-Digest V4 #3764 ******************************* To subscribe to GURPSnet-Digest, send the command: subscribe GURPSnet-Digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@io.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-testlist": subscribe GURPSnet-Digest local-testlist@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "GURPSnet-Digest" in the commands above with "GURPSnet-L". --==IFJRGLKFGIR10713UHRUHIHD--